Which Comes First???

So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind.” (Genesis 1:21)

The “age-old” question, “Which came first? The chicken or the egg?” that so many in the world quibble about is easy to answer when one reads what God’s word says about it. So what does it say? Right there in Genesis 1:21 you have it. First the bird, then the baby.

Another question that so many in the religious world quibble about is, “Which comes first? Baptism or salvation?” The answer to this question can be found just as easy as the answer to the previous question if we would only let God’s word give us the answer.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” (Mark 16:16)

So what does God’s word say about it? Right there in Mark 16:16 you have it. First baptism, then salvation.

Now, why do so many in the religious world trust God’s word when it comes to Genesis 1:21, but they can’t trust it when it comes to Mark 16:16? It’s something to think about.

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40 Responses to “Which Comes First???”

  1. You missed verse 17

    “And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;”
    - Mark 16:17

    • Sure, no problem. Which came first? Salvation by faith and baptism as verse 16 says or the miracles that verse 17 talks about??? What’s your point?

      • Just in case anyone is interested, “saved by grace” made the comment that he made because he and I have been having a little bit of a discussion on another blogger’s site. Feel free to check it out if you like – http://media4lifeministries.com/2012/04/01/repentance-before-salvation/

      • awesome!

        thank you for the quick reply

        @”Which came first? Salvation by faith and baptism”
        ———————————————————————–
        You have to change your question

        verse 16 does not sa Faith. It says believe.

        I check the greek and they are indeed not the same.

        If you meant “Salvation by believe and baptism as verse 16″

        then the answer is

        “He who believes and is baptized will be saved”

        @”What’s your point?
        ————————————————————————
        My point is simple.

        Speaking in tongues proves that one has believed and baptized.
        driving out demons proves one has believed and baptized.

      • You couldn’t be more wrong with your statement about what you consider “evidence” for salvation. I have to go to work, but I will answer your error with a correct scriptural view later.

      • I though I should bring it here, coz the the site was irelevant to baptism.

        this post perfectly fits our discussion.

  2. @”Which came first?”
    ————————————————————————

    1. Believe
    2. Baptized (because of ed)
    3. Drive out Demons / Speak in tongues (because the ‘and these signs’)

  3. @”You couldn’t be more wrong with your statement about what you consider “evidence” for salvation. ”
    ————————————-

    Aha! I never said “evidence for salvation”

    Let your readers understand verse 17 for us

    17 “AND THESE SIGNS will accompany those who believe …
    Drive out demons, SPEAK IN NEW TONGUES”

    @”I have to go to work, but I will answer your error with a correct scriptural view later
    ————————————-

    Oh I though you’re a priest. please dont mind me. go ahead and work.

  4. @”So what does God’s word say about it? Right there in Mark 16:16 you have it.
    First baptism, then salvation”
    ————————————————————————–

    Please change this statement.

    “First baptism, then salvation”

    this is not the gospel.

    • You are welcome to reply to my posts whether you agree or disagree with them, but we’re going to get one thing straight right now.

      I’m not going to play the little game you tried to play on the other blogger’s site. If you ask a question I will answer it. If I ask you a question then I want an answer. If you chose to ignore the question and continue to say things that has nothing to do with the topic at hand the conversation will end and I will delete all of your comments and you will not be allowed to commment any more. When you do comment please make your comments one at a time and not in three or four boxes…it makes it very hard for others to read and for me to keep up with. This shouldn’t be too hard.

      1) Your accusation of me “leaving out” verse 17 of Mark 16 has absolutely nothing to do with the post. A person did not have to have the ability to do miraculous works in order for them to be saved. Please read Acts 8:12-17 and you will find that the Samaritans believed the gospel that Philip preached, they were baptized and they were saved. They did not have the ability to do miraculous works until the apostles Peter and John came from Jerusalem and laid their hands on them so they could recieve the miraculous measure of the Holy Spirit. There is a difference between a person finding salvation in the gospel (Mark 16:16) and a person doing miracles (Mark 16:17).

      2) As far as your comments about you thinking I was a priest, I don’t know where you got that idea but I am a priest in the same way that all Christians are my friend (1 Peter 2:5,9), just not in the way that so many denominations pervert the term.

      3) You said, “Please change this statement. First baptism, then salvation” this is not the gospel. I am honestly having a hard time understanding your logic. Look at what Mark 16:16 says one more time.

      “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

      There are your answers. They should be very simple for you to understand.

      Now I have two questions:

      1) What did Jesus mean by saved in Mark 16:16 if He didn’t mean salvation as you stated, and 2) According to Mark 16:16 what comes first – baptism or salvation?

      These are very simple questions my friend. What is your answer?

      • alright. imagine me talking slowly and very very nicely. :)

        @Your accusation of me “leaving out” verse 17 of Mark 16 has absolutely nothing to do with the post
        ———————————————–

        sorry..

        but isnt it that that the bible originally had no verse numbers initially?
        hence the “AND” in 17 is part of 16?

        http://keltonburgpreacher.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/and-means-and/

        @”A person did not have to have the ability to do miraculous works in order for them to be saved”
        ———————————————–

        17 “AND THESE SIGNS will accompany those who believe …
        Drive out demons, SPEAK IN NEW TONGUES”

        as softly as I can speak.. :)

        It says “and” It did not say may or may not”

        Be it delayed or Immediate or upfront, but It is definitely going to happen.

        @”Please change this statement. First baptism, then salvation” this is not the gospel.
        I am honestly having a hard time understanding your logic. Look at what

        Mark 16:16 says one more time.

        “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
        ———————————————–

        I was inclining to like
        “believe first then baptized then cast
        out devil then speak in tongue or miraculous”

        ye. I see your point. so your right in a way.

        @1) What did Jesus mean by saved in Mark 16:16 if He didn’t mean salvation as you stated, and
        ———————————————–

        These are very simple questions my friend. What is your answer?

        In greek save here is “sōthēsetai” means “will be save”

        **so yes It is save

        @2) According to Mark 16:16 what comes first – baptism or salvation?
        ———————————————–
        These are very simple questions my friend. What is your answer?

        ok. let me see

        “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”

        believe first then baptized then salvation

        ***so yes. baptism comes first.

        @”As far as your comments about you thinking I was a priest”
        ———————————————–

        thanks for informing me. I was trying to find something about you your site.

        so thanks for telling me your not.

        this is not the first time someone is hostile to me, and usually they are priest

        I received tons of accusations. so I was pressuming.

        please accept my apology.

        I think you are a good man. so this difference of ours, I am putting is under the rag.

        I hope I did not offend you in any way, If I did please accept my apology

        I regret for putting up with you.

        ———————————————–

        Ok so I got a question of which I only learned recently.

        1. “Which dispensation is Mark 16:16 for”

        A. The Church?
        B. The Jews?

        2. “Is the letters of Paul to the Jews? or the Church?”

        3. “I tried to find a scripture reference for Paul’s baptism, but could not
        Perhaps you know of any verse?”

        4. “what is the gospel Paul preach to the gentile?
        What I know It is not baptism. (1 Corinthians 1:17)
        what is your understanding?”

        5. when you said @”if He didn’t mean salvation as you stated”
        can you point me out where did I said that? so i can make correction?

        okidoki. I am not trying to disprove you or anything. jsut trying to weigh down all
        references.

        If we can leave out all negative words, then perhaps we can come up with something
        in the discussion.

        looking forward to hearing from you.

      • Question 1 – “Which dispensation is Mark 16:16 for” A. The Church? B. The Jews?

        Answer: it is for the whole world whether Jew or gentile. “He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” (Mark 16:15) “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.” (Romans 1:16) “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:26-28) “For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-13) “And He is the head of the body, the church,…” (Colossians 1:18) You can also read Ephesians 2:11-22 where Paul says that the Jews and Gentiles are called to into one body (the church) through Jesus.

        Question 2 – “Is the letters of Paul to the Jews? or the Church?”

        Answer: They were to both. The church was made up of Jews and Gentiles. Some congregations were predominantly Jewish while some were predominantly Gentile. Regardless of which made up the majority of a congregation Pual’s letters were written with the authority of God (1 Corinthians 14:37).

        Question 3 – ““I tried to find a scripture reference for Paul’s baptism, but could not Perhaps you know of any verse?””

        Answer: “And now why are you [Saul/Paul] waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’”

        Perhaps you are wondering what Paul taught about water baptism – “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.” (Romans 6:1-6)

        Question 4 – ““what is the gospel Paul preach to the gentile? What I know It is not baptism. (1 Corinthians 1:17) what is your understanding?””

        Answer: You are misunderstanding that verse badly. Paul just said in the verse 10 that divisions weren’t acceptable to God. The church at Corinth were acting so spiriutally immature (1 Corinthians 3:2) that they were even letting the very act that united them in the same body (1 Corinthians 12:12-13) to divide them! Paul’s point was that they were missing the point of the gospel. It wasn’t about Paul, or about Apollos or Cephas but about Jesus. Look again at verse 13. Paul was saying he was sent to preach the gospel so the hearers could believe and find unity in Christ – not division and strife.

        Question 5 – “when you said @”if He didn’t mean salvation as you stated” can you point me out where did I said that? so i can make correction?”

        Answer: Look at the comment you made on 2012/04/09 at 7:43 am, when you said “@”So what does God’s word say about it? Right there in Mark 16:16 you have it. First baptism, then salvation” Please change this statement. “First baptism, then salvation” this is not the gospel.”

        If you would go back and look at the whole reason my original post was written you see that I was using the scriptures to say that a person is baptized and then saved. Not saved and then baptized. It was in no way a commentary on someone not having to believe before baptism and salvation.

        Now that your questions are answered fairly and clearly I only have one for you for now.

        1 – Why ignore Mark 16:18? Do you believe that someone who has believed and has been baptized can handle poisonous snakes that still have their fangs and with no gloves and not have to worry to about dying if they get bit? Do you believe that someone who has believed and has been baptized can drink something poisonous and not be harmed? Do you believe that someone who has believed and has been baptized can go to the hospital and heal the sick?

        If your answer is “no” to any of these questions, then what is your point about verse 17. As you said, numbers were added and originally verses 17 and 18 were one verse, so you can’t include verse 17 but not verse 18.

        This is a not question but merely a statement:

        Please don’t confuse someone becoming a Christian and finding salvation in Christ and someone having the ability to do miraculous works which were not given by water baptism but by the laying on of the hands of the apostles. Acts 19:3-6 says, “And he [Paul] said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.” Read also Acts 8:5-17 and you will see that Philip did not have the ability to pass along the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit but only the apostles.

        Holy Spirit baptism and water baptism are not the same thing. You can read Acts 10:44-48 to see this.

        God bless in your studies (Acts 17:11).

      • @”1 – Why do ignore Mark 16:18? Do you believe that someone who has believed
        and has been baptized can handle poisonous snakes that still have their fangs
        and with no gloves and not have to worry to about dying if they get bit?
        —————————————————————————

        well, I used to be in a church where we cast out demons.
        some pastors experienced being poisoned when eating food in public gatherings when invited to preach

        I haven’t touch snake and I must say I hate snake. even eat them, I cannot

        @”Do you believe that someone who has believed and has been baptized can drink
        something poisonous and not be harmed?”
        —————————————————————————

        yes.

        I grew up in a city, where missionaries are kidnapped, pastors are murdered and churches are bomb.

        regardless of denomination, as long as your not muslim, you are a target.

        so “will I drink a poison?”
        even if a gun is pointed at me (I was pointed already),
        I will still not drink it, in defiance.

        but if my family is at stake I will drink it.

        but If you mean, “will I drink It to proved that I am baptized”,
        well I will cast out demons first, then speak in tongues.

        If casting out the demons does not work,
        then I can assure you the poison is going to kill me.

        just thinking out loud.

        @”Do you believe that someone who has believed and has been baptized can go to
        the hospital and heal the sick?
        —————————————————————————

        yes.

        In the city I grew in, inspite of persecutions and death threats
        the Christians, composed of pentecostals, methodist, evangelicals …
        are all in one accord – going to hospitals and praying for dying patients

        of course, some patients after prayer, died and went to heaven
        and of course, some patients are miraculously healed in Jesus name!

        My Uncle Is shot in the Head during an ambush,. He was proclaimed
        dead in the hospital

        but An american Missionary prayed for my dead uncle. guess what happen?

        He lived! but the bullet is still inside his head.

        @”If your answer is “no” to any of these questions, then what is your point about verse 17.
        As you said, numbers were added and originally verses 17 and 18 were one verse, so you can’t
        include verse 17 but not verse 18.
        —————————————————————————

        yea. It was a bad statement. I am sorry if you felt bad about it.

        @”This is a not question but merely a statement:”
        —————————————————————————

        thank you for not putting a question mark

        @”Please don’t confuse someone becoming a Christian and finding salvation in Christ and someone
        having the ability to do miraculous works which were not given by water baptism but by the
        laying on of the hands of the apostles
        —————————————————————————

        I understand your point.

        I look like a dumb here by asking questions after questions.

        based on my understanding

        Verse 17 and 18 was lock until the apostle Paul laid hands
        on the baptized and the ability mentioned in v17, v18 was sort of unlock.

        so, therefore

        1. If today. lets say I am baptized. will it only take someone to lay hands on me,
        then I can perform those miraculous signs?

        a few more question.

        I know salvation is by grace through FAITH not by works.
        and I know “Believe” and “Faith” are not the same.

        3. Is baptism not a work? or a work? why do or you dont think so? can you provide a scripture ref?
        2. Is baptism essential for salvation? can a person be saved without being baptized?
        3. Will a person who believes in Jesus not allow himself to be baptized, still be saved?
        (I am asking this because in some places, the gospel is preached secretly)

        thank you for taking time over the scriptures and painstaikingly posting them.
        I can understand the frustration you have,
        perhaps if you live nearby I’ll treat you a cup of coffee

      • Good morning SBG,

        You said, “Verse 17 and 18 was lock until the apostle Paul laid hands on the baptized and the ability mentioned in v17, v18 was sort of unlock.”

        I would say that is “sorta” close. Miraculous acts had a purpose in the first century. Their purpose was to confirm the word (Mark 16:20). The word has been confirmed/made sure today (Jude 3). The purposes of the miracles were for more than what people try to “use” them for today. They were a fulfillment of propehcy (Acts 2:17-21). Like every other dispensation the world has seen (the Patriarchal, the Mosaical, and the Christian) every age began with miracles but before the age was finished the miracles ceased because God’s word/will for that time had been fully revealed. God’s word for today (the New Testament) is complete.

        Question 1 – “1. If today. lets say I am baptized. will it only take someone to lay hands on me, then I can perform those miraculous signs?”

        Answer: It would take the laying on of the hands of the apostles, but they are dead. No person in the New Testament after the death of Christ was able to perform miracles from God unless the apostles had laid their hands on them. The only expection to this is Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. This was done to make the Jews realize that God would accept the Gentiles who came to Him through the gospel – “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.” (Acts 10:34,35) God’s righteousness is revealed in the Gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16,17). When Peter and the other Jews saw the Holy Spirit fall on Cornelius their repsonse was that God must accept them, so Cornelius and his household obeyed the gospel (Romans 10:47-48).

        Question 2 – “3. Is baptism not a work? or a work? why do or you dont think so? can you provide a scripture ref?”

        Answer: Baptism is a work, BUT not a work of man. Colossians 2:11-13 says, “In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,”

        Alright, read those verses and then answer these questions – According to Paul who did the “circumcision made without hands” performed during baptism? Who raises a person through faith to walk in newness of life from baptism just like Jesus was raised from the dead? Who forgave us all of our trespasses/sins by bringing us to life up from the waters of baptism? If you read Romans 6:1-6 it will also help you to answer the questions.

        Again, Titus 3:5 says, “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,” What does the washing while at the same time creates in us a new heart/person/life through the Spirit of God and His word? Read John 3:1-5, 1st Peter 1:23-25, Colossians 2:11-13, Colossians 3:1-3, Romans 6:1-11, Ephesians 5:26, Acts 22:16, Revelation 1:5. Baptism is the water of the new birth, given and directed by the word of God’s Spirit, when the old man is buried, the new man is risen because our sins have been washed away through the power of Jesus’ blood.

        Baptism is a work of God, not of man – he created it, he commanded it, we submit to him in it.

        Question 3 – “2. Is baptism essential for salvation? can a person be saved without being baptized?”

        Answer: I am not the judge of a person’s soul. God is. I can only tell a person what God’s word says. God’s word tells people to be immersed in water for the forgiveness of sin through the blood of Christ.

        Question 4 – “3. Will a person who believes in Jesus not allow himself to be baptized, still be saved? (I am asking this because in some places, the gospel is preached secretly)”

        Answer: It really does bother me that people must worship God secretly where you live because of persecution. I am sad to hear that, and the other things you mentioned at the beginning of your reply. To a give you an answer I will again encourage you to read the scriptures I have given you. I only try to what 1 Peter 4:11 says to do, and that’s let the word of God speak. A person does not have to baptized in some “fancy” ceremony. It can done in a bathtub, a small pool of water whether in the ground or in a large container. As long as a person understands what they’re doing, they do it from the heart (Romans 6:17), and they are buried in water I believe God will keep His promise and add a person to the church He purchased with His blood, and not the church that some man has started (Acts 2:47, 20:28).

        Finally you said, “thank you for taking time over the scriptures and painstaikingly posting them. I can understand the frustration you have, perhaps if you live nearby I’ll treat you a cup of coffee”

        No problem. I’m not frustrated at all. I just like discussions that include people actually answering each other’s questions. As far as the coffee goes, thank you for the offer but we’re a long, long ways a part. But thank God for the internet that allows to talk and study God’s word together.

        If I missed anything let me know. Have a good day and God bless as you study.

  5. I appreciate your post, especially your chart. But I do have a question: Is it possible that just because a word like “baptism” or “washing” is used, it is not referring to the same thing.

    For example, the word “save” means to deliver or rescue, but it doesn’t always mean to save from sin. When Jesus called Peter up out of the boat to join Him walking upon the water, and Peter began to sink in the waves, he called out “Lord, save me” (Matt 14:30). He wasn’t calling in a spiritually redemptive sense; he just didn’t want to drown.

    Could it be that the baptism/washing in your chart has nothing to do with water; that the word “baptism” simply means immersion, but could be immersion in a variety of substances or means? If so, it would change the meaning of your chart significantly.

    Thanks.

    • Thanks for your comments Richard.

      As far as what Mark 16:16 is refering to when Jesus said “saved” the answer is very clear as to what the person who believed and was baptized would be saved from. They would be saved from their sins. Jesus said in Luke 24:47, “…repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” This is exactly what Peter and the rest of the apostles did in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost. In Acts 2:38 Peter told the crowd that believed the gospel and desired to be saved from their sins, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Verses 40 and 41 go on to say, “And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.”

      Now take Mark 16:16, Luke 24:47 and Acts 2:38 and picture is too clear. Believe (have faith in) the gospel and be baptized (in water) for the remission of one’s sins (to find forgiveness/salvation). The context of Mark 16:16 clearly means to be saved from sin. Nothing else could fit and make any scriptural sense.

      Another way that one can see that the baptism of Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 is water baptism is by looking at the examples found in the book of Acts.

      Acts 8:12,13 - “But when they [the Samaritans] believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.” There is no way the baptism they all submitted to was anything but water baptism.

      Acts 8:35-38 - “Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may. “And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.”

      Acts 10:44-48 - “While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word [Cornelius and his household]. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord…”

      Acts 16:13-15 - “And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there. 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized,…” I don’t think it’s a coincidence that a riverside was right there along with the performing of baptism.

      Acts 22:16 – “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’”

      I could give more examples from Acts but these should suffice.

      Now, take John 3:5 – “Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

      Take Ephesians 5:26 - “that He might sanctify and cleanse her [the church] with the washing of water by the word,”

      Take 1 Peter 3:21 - “There is also an antitype [of the flood waters vs.20] which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,”

      Take Titus 3:5 – “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,”

      Now, what “washing” that regenerates is Paul talking about? It’s the same one that washes away sin (Acts 22:16), the same one that cleanses (Ephesians 5:25), the same that allows us to bury the old man and put on the new man to be born again in the waters of baptism that Romans 6:1-5, John 3:3-5 and Colossians 2:11-13 talk about.

      When Jesus referred to the gospel in Mark 16:15-16, He was referring to the same one that Paul referred to in Romans 1:16 – both refer to being saved from one’s sins.

      Sorry my repsonse is so long, but there are several verses in the chart that you referred to. You asked a good question, but I guess after looking at all the scriptures, to me the question would be, “How could the baptism/washing be in anything but water?”

      Just to let you know, I got the chart from http://www.padfield.com in case you would like to check it out.

      Thanks, Richard.

      • I did’nt mean to be rude. but I really cant help it. I need to know the answer for this question. as this is now involving cleaning of sin.

        @”It’s the same one that washes away sin (Acts 22:16), the same one that cleanses (Ephesians 5:25)”

        what is the relation of washing of sin

        Ephesians 5:26 – “that He might sanctify and cleanse her [the church] with the washing of water by the word,”

        to the cleansing in 1 John 1:7

        “and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin”
        - 1 John 1:7

        I dont mean to be contradictive or argumentative.

        1. but what is the role of baptism and the blood of Jesus
        in terms of washing and cleansing our sins.?

        2. can we be washed and cleansed of our sins without baptism?

        this is serious matter. I will have to be baptized you see. (although I was baptized some years ago without a good knowledge of it)

        looking forward to hear from you

      • Hello again,

        You asked, “what is the relation of washing of sin Ephesians 5:26 – “that He might sanctify and cleanse her [the church] with the washing of water by the word,” to the cleansing in 1 John 1:7 “and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin” – 1 John 1:7″

        Answer: Great question and very easy to understand when one keeps in mind what is being discussed in the verses. 1 John 1:7 is a wonderful verse. It’s also a verse that is written to people who already Christians. They are “in Christ” (Galatians 3:26,27) so they have access to the cleansing power of His blood. In other words, once a person believes the gospel and they are baptized in water for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16) then they are entered into a covenant relationship with Christ through the church, which is His body (Acts 2:47; Ephesians 5:23). When a person sins they do not have to baptized over and over because they are in the covenant relationship with God. When a person who is a Christian sins against God, and we will, they must repent and confess to Him to find forgiveness (Acts 8:22-24; 1 John 1:7-10).

        You asked, “I dont mean to be contradictive or argumentative. 1. but what is the role of baptism and the blood of Jesus in terms of washing and cleansing our sins.?”

        Remember, when a person is not a Christian and they hear the gospel they must believe it and submit to it; part of which is being baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38, 22:16). Now, once a person is a Christian we still need the blood of Christ as much as before we became a Christian. That’s where “walking in the light” and repentance and confession to God comes in. There is a difference between a non-Christian’s and Christian’s repsonsiblity to God and our sin according to the scriptures (2 Timothy 2:15).

        A person can turn his/her back on the blood of Christ, but they do so to the loss of their soul – “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:26-31)

        You said, “this is serious matter. I will have to be baptized you see. (although I was baptized some years ago without a good knowledge of it)”

        I agree with you saying it is a serious matter. I hope you’re being honest. And I agree that one must have a good understanding of what baptism is about. That’s why Matthew 28:19-20 that people needed to be taught, then baptized and then taught some more.

        Look what Acts 8:35-39 says – “Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” 38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39 Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.”

        Now who said anything about baptism? The scriptures just say that Philip preached Jesus – BUT the eunuch was the one who pointed the water out. Why is that? The answer is obvious. To preach Jesus (the gospel) is to preach the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Now how does a person obey the gospel – the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus? Read Romans 6:1-6 and you will see that it’s through submitting to God in water baptism. Allowing God to bury the old man of sin and allowing Him to raise us out of the water (the tomb) to walk in newness of life. To preach the gospel included preaching the purpose of baptism (Mark 16:15,16). Romans 6:17 says, “But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.” What form of doctrine/teaching? Look again at Romans 6:1-6 to see.

        I used to argue strongly against baptism for the remission of sins and its necessity – but I eventually realized I was only arguing against the scriptures of God…an argument that I would lose.

        Submitting to God’s command in no way makes us earn His gift of salvation. Again, God bless in your studies.

  6. @”Colossians 2:11-13 says, “In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision
    made without hands,
    by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh,
    by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also
    were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
    And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has
    made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,”

    According to Paul who did the “circumcision made without hands” performed during baptism? ”
    ————————————————————————————-

    *”by the circumcision of Christ”

    Christ did the circumcision.

    ——————-

    **my understanding on the verse is that :

    by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, we were also circumcised
    with the circumcision made without hands

    by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, we are putting off
    the body of the sins of the flesh

    “We are circumsised, by the circumcision of Christ”

    “we are buried (something to do with dead in trespasses & uncircumcission of flesh)
    with Christ in Baptism”

    “we are raised (something to do with born again, He has made Us alive together with Him) from the dead
    through faith. That was God’s work”

    “having forgiven us all trespasses through the burying and raising”

    I learned also that the word “Christ” refers to the ressurected Jesus.

    @Who raises a person through faith to walk in newness of life from baptism just
    like Jesus was raised from the dead? Who forgave us all of our trespasses/sins by bringing us
    to life up from the waters of baptism? ”
    ————————————————————————————-

    *”were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead”

    God does the raising from the dead through faith. It is God’s work
    —————-

    my understanding on the verse is that :

    The whole package consists of circumcision and baptism.
    We are raise from the dead by God through faith. God’s work

    follow up question

    I remember When Jesus was baptized. He was not baptized for His sins. He knew no sin.
    He was sinless.

    1. could it be that the baptism in Colossians 2:11-13 refers to the baptism of Christ?
    and since we are dead to trespasses, when Jesus was resurrected and become Christ
    we were made alive (by faith) by the same ressurection God worked on Jesus?

    I check the baptism word in greek
    baptismós – properly, submergings;
    (figuratively) ceremonial washings (Mk 7:4; Heb 9:10)
    or
    the profound realities of spiritual and water baptism (Heb 6:2).

    could it be a demonstration of ceremonial washing the Jews were used to doing,
    pointing to the true cleansing which is the blood of Jesus?

    I am just relating this to “when Jesus washed the diciples feet”

    Jesus said to Peter, you are already bathe. you only need your feet wash.
    but then again, we know the real cleansing is the blood of Jesus which is to come.

    whats your understanding?

    2. what does it mean

    “He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses”

    All means, all trespasses forgiven? are this entire lifetime? past present future?
    if only past, then can we undergo the circumcision and baptism again for forgiveness?

    @”If I missed anything let me know”
    ———————————

    all’s well

    thanks for the answers in advance

    • Kamusta muli, :)

      I hope that says “Hello again” – I used Google translate, so I’m sorry if it’s not correct.

      I think you did a pretty good job at breaking down the questions with your answers. It sounds as like if someone were to you ask is baptism a work of man (something that makes us earn God’s salvation) you should be able to give an answer with the scriptures.

      Now to your questions:

      You said: “I remember When Jesus was baptized. He was not baptized for His sins. He knew no sin. He was sinless. 1. could it be that the baptism in Colossians 2:11-13 refers to the baptism of Christ? and since we are dead to trespasses, when Jesus was resurrected and become Christ we were made alive (by faith) by the same ressurection God worked on Jesus?

      Jesus was baptized with the baptism of John. There is a difference between the baptism of John and the baptism Jesus gave in Matthew 28:18,19 and Mark 16:15-16. John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance that looked forward to the cross and the sacrificce of Jesus’ blood and the forgiveness of sins. Before Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection John’s baptism was followed, but once Jesus was risen from the dead and He gave the command to be baptized for the remission of sins that looked backwards to His death was given.

      So why was Jesus baptized if He had no sin? Because it revealed who Jesus was and because it was God’s commandment for all Israel through John who was a prophet of God (John 1:33). As the perfect sacrifice Jesus always followed God’s will. “And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.” (Matthew 3:14-16) What did Jesus do to fulfill all righteousness again? “For all Your commandments are righteousness.” (Psalm 119:172) He was baptized.

      The baptism of Colossians 2:11-13 does not refer to the baptism of John that Jesus submitted to, but the baptism commanded by Jesus (John 3:1-5; Acts 2:38). We can know this for a fact because Paul met some disciples who were baptized in the name of John after Jesus had died and was resurrected and the New Covenant was in effect (Hebrews 9:16-17), so Paul baptized them in the name of Jesus (Matthew 28:18-19; Acts 2:38). You can read this in Acts 19:1-5.

      You said, “I check the baptism word in greek…could it be a demonstration of ceremonial washing the Jews were used to doing, pointing to the true cleansing which is the blood of Jesus?”

      The ceremonial washings of the Jews were shadows (actions of the past that pointed to the future) of the act of New Testament baptism that the Messiah would give. For example, before someone could serve God as a priest in the Tabernacle and later the Temple they had to be washed in the water from the bronze laver (Exodus 30:17-21). Today all Christians are priests (1st Peter 2:5,9) and before we become Christians what are we called to do? We are called to be washed from our sins in the waters of baptism through the blood Christ (Ephesians 5:26; Acts 22:16; Revelation 1:5) and after we are baptized we are called to “walk in the light and to confess our sins” and the blood of Christ will keep on cleansing us of our sins (1 John 1:7)

      There were all kinds of shadows in the Old Testament that looked forward and were a “type” of the baptism that God would command in the covenant through Jesus for all the world. For example, the flood waters that cleansed the old sinful world and gave Noah a new life was a type/shadow of the water baptism we submit to today that gives us a new life through Jesus’ resurrection (1st Peter 3:20,21)

      Also, when the children of Israel were freed from physical slavery by their savior Moses, they found freedom and the enemy was destroyed when they were baptized into Moses in the Red Sea. The passover lamb was slain and the waters of the Red Sea lead to freedom (1 Corinthians 10:1-2). Today our Passover Lamb (Jesus – John 1:29; 1 Corinthians 5:7) has shed His blood to provide us with safety and we find freedom from spiritual slavery to sin when we are baptized into Jesus’ death and raised to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:1-6, 16-18).

      You said, “Jesus said to Peter, you are already bathe. you only need your feet wash. but then again, we know the real cleansing is the blood of Jesus which is to come. whats your understanding?”

      You’re right that the cleansing of sin came from the blood Christ. Jesus didn’t have to wash Peter’s whole body because the foot washing wasn’t really about getting clean feet to begin with. The cleansing of the feet was to teach the disciples a lesson on humility that they needed badly since Jesus was about to be crucifed. If the Master wasn’t “to good” to serve others in the lowliest of ways then the apostles shouldn’t be…and neither should we either. I think humility is something that we could all show more of.

      Last question. You said, “2. what does it mean “He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses” All means, all trespasses forgiven? are this entire lifetime? past present future? if only past, then can we undergo the circumcision and baptism again for forgiveness?”

      When a person sins they die spiritually. The right relationship between us and God is lost just Adam and Eve lost their right relationship with God when they sinned. The didn’t die physically when they sinnned, they died spiritually. When a person is born again they are born again spiritually and God creates a new heart (Colossians 2:11-12). That’s why Colossians 2:13 says what it does about being made alive from sin. The “all” of Colossians 2:13 refers to the sins of the past because to find forgiveness of the sins that we commit in the present and in the future we must “walk in the light as He is in the light” (1 John 1:7). Once a person is baptized they put on Christ and to find forgiveness of sins we confess them to God and trust His grace (Galatians 3:26-27). So when a person is baptized correctly they do not have to be baptized again because they are entered into the covenant relationship with God.

      I hope these answers to your questions help. Now that we’ve dicussed all of these things I would like to kindly point something out please.

      Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,”. Now we know because of our studies that a person is dead spiritually because of sin. After all, Paul wasn’t talking to physically dead people. They were at one time spiritually dead because of their sins that committed. But Paul says Jesus made them alive from their sins. Now how do the scriptures teach that this happens? Through the waters of baptism (Romans 6:1-6, Colossians 2:11-13). So Paul says “by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:8-10)

      There was nothing that we could have done to earn God sending His Son as verse 8 and also Romans 5:8 and Titus 3:5 says. We can know that the gift of salvation was indeed given as a gift by God because it was Jesus who made us alive in baptism. Paul said in verse 10 we are created in Christ. Now, how does a person get into Christ? Through baptism (Romans 6:1-6; Galatians 3:26-27; 1st Corinthians 12:13). That’s why I say that submitting to God in baptism in no way earns our salvation and violates Ephesians 2:8…it’s actually the right response to God’s offer of it. When a person is in Christ they are a new creation and all the old things have passed away (2nd Corinthians 5:17).

      God’s word is clear when we study it to find the truth (John 8:32). When we find the truth, the scriptures compliment each other instead of contradicting each other.

      I’m sorry this is so long but I wanted to try to answer your questions plus other questions you may think of when you read these. If you have any other questions feel free to ask. Have a good day.

      • @Kamusta muli

        wow.. you actually spoke our local dialect…:)

        I actually speak 4 different local dialect, and one of them is tagalog :)

        so that pretty much screws up my language. Im not sure if ‘screws’ is a good word to be used.

        I am at the office now, and did a quick run down of your answers to my queries, but will get to them at depth once at home.

        thanks for your time.

      • okay. Im back.

        from someone who cant afford to go to college or bible school, I really thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights.

        I must say I have learned many things from this discussion.

        in my very limited brain capacity, I did my best to understand and asked question. thank you for your patience.

        - grace and peace to you my friend

        “Jesus loves me this I know, for the bible tells me so”

      • From someone who has no “diploma’s on the wall” I would just like to say you have asked very good questions and you have given good replies. I encourage you to keep studying. I like your song quote – how do we know Jesus loves us? Because the Bible tells us so. God’s word is a lamp for our feet and a light for our pathway (Psalm 119:105) and without God’s word we would have no knowledge of the Gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16-17, 10:8-17).

        You don’t have to have a “proper” education to have a proper understanding of God’s word. “Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.” (1 Corinthians 1:25-29)

        I believe we have come a long way since our conversation first began and I am glad we kept talking. Read God’s word in a way that allows the scriptures to complement each other instead of contradicting each other and the truth can be found (2 Timothy 2:15). God wouldn’t send His Son to die for us and then give us a gospel we couldn’t understand. Whether or not we believe it is a different thing, but we can understand it. So I encourage you to act on what you have learned. You will always be welcome to comment on my posts whether or not you agree with them. If you any other questions just ask. I will do my best to help out personally, or I will give you resources that can allow you to study on your own. Check out http://www.housetohouse.com – I think you will enjoy it. Also you can visit http://www.ucanbsure.org/course.html – they have actual lessons that you can do on their website with questions and answers and places for your personal questions.

        God bless my friend as you study.

  7. I must say, though I received my Bachelor’s degree from a Restoration Movement bible college that transformed my very way of thinking, I am disappointed in this discussion. I was hoping to read an article with a new approach–something intriguing to read–and I was left with nothing more than the cliche positions from both sides. You both have proven precisely what’s wrong with our Christianity–we still have yet to submit our anxious need for certainty to the sovereignty of God. Do we participate with Him in salvation? Absolutely! However, it’s not a formula. I’m actually convinced now that repentance comes after the Holy Spirit’s indwelling (even though a strict deductive rationale requires repentance be first). The more we rip the Bible to shreds to decipher its strict command, and I love my Bible, the more we abide by the sinful judicial system that works within. It’s us telling God that we can take His Word and figure it out without His help! I have yet to write an article on baptism’s relationship to salvation, and believe me when I say I see the act of immersion as a profound step in pursuing God in covenant relationship, but I guarantee it will look nothing like the conversation above this reply!

    – Chris

    http://unapologeticapologist.wordpress.com/

    • I guess you’re right. Many people are looking for something new from the gospel and that causes them to think for themselves instead of allowing the scriptures to teach them. I look for the “same old gospel” that Jesus said to preach after His resurrection. Mark 16:16 will continue to say what it says. Matthew 28:18,19 will continue to say “teach, baptize and teach” so I don’t really understand your point about a “new approach.”

      Your remark about “our anxious need for certainity” confuses me to be honest. God wants us to be certain about His will concerning our salvation and I am certain of that. “Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”” (John 8:31,32) “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12,13) “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” (Romans 12:1,2)

      As far as anything being a “formula” you can disregard what the scriptures show if you choose to do so. The point of this post and any conversation that I have conerning the topic of baptism or salvation in general is that are certain things a person must do in response to God’s offer. A person must believe and repent before they are baptized. Why is that so important? For one, if people understood that “formula” as you put it then they would understand that baby’s do not need to be baptized. “Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.” (Acts 18:8)

      You said, “I’m actually convinced now that repentance comes after the Holy Spirit’s indwelling (even though a strict deductive rationale requires repentance be first).” You may be convinced of that, but it wasn’t the scriptures that convinced you. Sure God’s goodness leads people to repentance (Romans 2:4), but the sealing of God’s Spirit is for those who are saved, not for those who seek to be saved (Acts 2:38; 1 Corinthians 12:12-13; Titus 3:5).

      You call “it ripping the Bible to shreds” – I call it rightly dividing the scriptures as the scriptures call it (2 Timothy 2:15).

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Chris.

    • @”but I guarantee it will look nothing like the conversation above this reply!
      ———————————————————————-

      I will definitely check it out!

  8. [...] Which Comes First??? (keltonburgpreacher.wordpress.com) ShareShare [...]

  9. Salvation is not dependent on baptism! If it was deathbed confessions would be illegitimate! In point of fact, if salvation were dependent on baptism, then Jesus LIED to man hanging on the cross next to his when He said, “today thou shalt be with me in paradise”!

    • Oh and I should point out if one was going to use the creation theme to explain Savation it should used to fullest extent, rather than pick and choose which portions you think are appropriate!
      Day 1 is contrast- a separation of light and dark, marks salvation.
      Day 2 is the division of waters- 2 Tim 2:15 didiving scripture!
      Day 3 is fruit bearing- references producing fruit!
      Day 4 sun moon and stars- referncing Baptism the sun-death, moon-burial and stars-resurrection of Christ, also this is the day “time” was created referencing the will of God
      For more info refer to Creation Theme on my site!

    • Hello CF,

      You said, “If it was deathbed confessions would be illegitimate”

      As far as deathbed salvation goes I have already discussed it with scripture and not emotionalism which is what happens most of the time – “deathbed salvation

      You said, “if salvation were dependent on baptism, then Jesus LIED to man hanging on the cross next to his when He said, “today thou shalt be with me in paradise”!”

      My friend, you err not knowing the scriptures. If baptism has nothing to do with salvation today then Jesus LIED when He said, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.” Do you see where salvation falls in that order? It is too plain not to be seen unless one intentionally ignores it because of their doctrinal bias.

      Trying to use the thief on the cross as an example of what a person today must do to become a Christian won’t work. First – the thief lived under a different covenant than we do (Hebrews 9:16,17). Second – the thief did not have to confess that Jesus was raised from the dead (Romans 10:9,10). Third – the thief was not saved by faith alone; he reviled Jesus at first but repented (Matthew 27:41-44; Luke 23:39-41). Lastly, Jesus gave the command for baptism for the remission of sins after the thief was dead and He was resurrected (Mark 16:15,16).

      On what side of Mark 16:16 do you live on my friend? Before Jesus said “he that believes and is baptized will be saved” like the thief did? Or is it after Jesus said what He said in Mark 16:16? Be honest with your self and the scriptures and you’ll find the answer.

      Learn to “rightly divide the word of truth” (2 Timothy 2:15) and you would see why Mark 16:16 doesn’t apply to the thief. The thief found forgiveness like all others who Jesus met during His earthly ministry found forgiveness, and that was through Jesus’ power to speak sins forgiven while here on the Earth (Mark 2:10). Today we live under the New Covenant that has conditions we must meet. That’s why to simply say that all a person has to do is believe to be saved isn’t true.

      And just incase you think Jesus didn’t mean what He said about baptism in Mark 16:16 because He didn’t say “he that believes not and is baptized not shall be condemned” I have already covered that topic too for anyone who wishes to know the truth about it – “but he who does not believe shall be condemned

      As far as your “salvation theme” goes it has absolutely no support scripturally. It’s only a twisting of the scriptures to support some “theme” that does not actually exist. Try using some plain spoken New Testament scriptures to start off with.

      Thanks for willingness to reply though. God bless in your studies.

      • I will have to respectfully disagree with you! Ephesians 2:8-9
        For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. If you have to do something to receive Salvation then it is no longer a gift but a reward! Baptism is an example of the fact that you have left your old life behind. Taken up the cross to follow Christ.

        The Creation theme holds water if you understand 1 Corinthians 10:11
        Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. The word happened is historical, ensamples is pictorial, our admonition is practical application! The word ensamples you may like to check out. The theme holds water! The theme supports Dispensationalism, will break down aspects of each dispensation, will support institutions ie… Marriage Family. I have only begun to realize the death of the theme! We have to remember that God is a God of order and he does not make things out to be difficult but simplistic! It is, while I did not complete the story for you, interesting that the theme supported my claim for Gods creation of The Believer that Baptism is not required to receive Salvation!! Which brings up the point, why is there a difference between a deathbed confession and the living! My friend, if I may be so bold, Baptism is an important act in the life of a believer, but it is not A requirement for Salvation!

      • Hello again CF,

        Ephesians 2:8-9 in no way contradicts the necessity of baptism. Baptism for the remission of sins is a command of God, and for one to obey God’s command in no way earns what He gives in repsonse to our humble obedience – “…He [Jesus] became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,” (Hebrews 5:9).

        Baptism is not a work of man. It is a work of God as Colossians 2:11-13 plainly teaches – “In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,”. Baptism is a very active work of God when God does certain things on our behalf – it is a time when God works, not man.

        Baptism is a part of God’s grace as Titus 3:5 teaches – “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,”

        Baptism is a part of one’s faithful response to the gospel as Galatians 3:26-27 teaches – “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

        You said, “If you have to do something to receive Salvation then it is no longer a gift but a reward! Baptism is an example of the fact that you have left your old life behind. Taken up the cross to follow Christ.”

        My friend, don’t you see that in your very answer you show that people are responsible for how they repsond to the gospel! I’m sure you believe these things must be done by us, but yet you don’t believe these things are works?

        Peter told the crowd on Pentecost to, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Did their faith (which they obviously had), their repentance or their submission to God’s command earn the gift of the Holy Spirit? No more than they earn the gift of salvation, but yet the crowd was told they must do something in response to God’s grace to receive God’s gift.

        You brought up 1 Corinthians 10:11. I love that verse. I love that chapter. Have you read the first two verses. If you would read the first two verses of chapter 10 you will find that is was neccesary for the children of Israel to be baptized into Moses to escape their physical slavery to the Egyptians. The same is true about being baptized into Jesus today! If we desire to escape our spiritual slavery to sin then we must be baptized into Jesus (Romans 6:1-6; Galatians 3:26,27).

        You said, “It is, while I did not complete the story for you, interesting that the theme supported my claim for Gods creation of The Believer that Baptism is not required to receive Salvation!!”

        Your created “theme” may support your “claim” but the scriptures of God do not.

        As far as your separate reply goes, don’t get the cart in front of the horse. Let me make it clear with this question in relation to Mark 16:16 and the thief and people who are alive today.

        When did Jesus give the command “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved” found in Mark 16:16? Was it after the thief was dead and the resurrected Christ commanded it – or was before the thief died and the resurrected Christ commanded it? The answer completely takes care of whether or not the thief had to be baptized for the remission of sins in water and whether or not we have to.

        God bless in your studies. If you have any other questions feel free to ask.

      • Hi Eugene, good to see you again

        whats your thought on John 3:5

        Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of WATER and the SPIRIT.”

        does it necessitate both baptism by water and baptism by spirit?

      • Hey SBG. I hope all is well.

        As to you question about John 3:5, it is not talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It definitely is talking about the involvement of the Spirit of God, but not the baptism of the Holy Spirit as some try to teach.

        When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus he was talking to a man that was born into the Old Covenant through his natural birth and then was later taught about God. Today in the New Covenant a person is taught and then they are born into God’s covenant. That’s why Jesus said Nicodemus would have to be born again. This is one of the differences that Jeremiah prophesied about between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant that would come through Jesus and is recorded in Hebrews 8:11-12 – “None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me [because they have been taught], from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more [becuase of the mercy through Jesus].” It’s like Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20 – “Go you therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you….”

        When one is born again by water and the Spirit they are born again because they have repsonded to the Gospel call of Christ (Romans 1:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). It’s like Peter said in 1 Peter 1:23 – “having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever” and what Paul said in Ephesians 5:26 – “that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,”. The “water” is baptism and the “word” is the word of God, which is the Spirit’s instructions in the gospel.

        Romans 6:3 teaches that when a person is baptized into Christ because they place their faith in the gospel they bury the old man and then they are raised to walk in newness of life because they have been given a new life in Jesus; or in other words they are “born again” by the water (baptism) and the Spirit (the word of God, Romans 6:17).

        Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” (2 Corinthians 5:17) When Paul told the Corinthians, “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 12:13) Paul wasn’t talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. He was talking about what happened when Acts 18:8 says, “Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.” It was the same baptism that the people on the day of Pentecost submitted to when they found forgivness and were added to church by the Lord when they obeyed the gospel and were born again by the water and the Spirit (Acts 2:38,41,47).

        If you have any more questions feel more than free to ask. Take care.

      • I maybe shooting from the hip on this but it seems I recall that historically it is recognized the thief died after Jesus, and I also believe the Bible also elludes to that same conclusion! Therefore, if the thief did in fact die after Jesus, that puts Him in our dispensation of Grace! The power of Gods word and actions are without Question! But if God emphasized that a man be baptisted before he can enter the gates of heaven we then make Jesus out to be a hypocrite if he is not Baptized! “God does not play the game of do as I say not as I do” and I do not believe that the thief jumped off the cross ran to the nearest creek, and went back to finish his time on the cross!

        Do not think I am underestimatating the importance of Baptism in a Christians life! Only pointing out that there is a problem with the doctrine!

  10. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Let’s point out that it is the non belief that condemns! It would have mentioned in the second half of the verse, if it were true, that belief without Baptism condemns! The fact that someome is or is not baptized is irrelevant in the condemnation based on the second half of that verse!

    MacAthur says: “it does not teach that baptism saves, since the lost are condemned for unbelief, not for being baptized.

    The New Hampshire Baptist Confession 1833 “Declaration of Faith” paragraph on Salvation does not state that baptism is a requirement of Salvation. 
    In paragraph 14 Baptism is paired with the Lords Supper something I have never heard before: “Baptism is a prerequisite to the privileges of a church relation; and to the Lords Supper”.

    Matthew Henry says: “He that is a true Christian, shall be saved thru Christ. Baptism was appointed to be the inaugurating rite, by which those that embraced Christ owned Him. If they believe not they shall be damned, by the sentence of a despised gospel, added to that of a broken law. And even this is gospel, it is good news, that nothing else but unbelief shall damn men, which is a sin against the remedy.

    John 3:18,36 confirm that it is unbelief that condemns.

    John Calvin seemed to be disputing the Roman Chatholics idea of baptizing infants. Then he goes on to say about Mark 16:16 “The command there given by Christ relates principally to the preaching of the Gospel; to it Baptism is added as a kind of appendage. Then he merely speaks of Baptism insofar as the dispensation of it is subordinate to the function of teaching……. He subjoins that such after being taught, we’re to be Baptized, adding the promise”.

    I read the verse again read all the notes we have passed back and forth and still come to the same conclusion! I went and checked out a couple of popular commentaries and even threw in the Baptist Confession and learned something new, and many others support the view I have mentioned!

    Do not misinterpret, I believe that there are 2 commands God gives us as believers! 1 be baptized 2 go into all the world and preach the Gospel! Baptism is very important in the life of the believer, but is not prerequisite to Salvation!

    In my recollection somewhere I remember hearing that Ephesus had the same idea about Baptism as you have subscribed to and that is the reason Paul Eph. 2:8-9.

    • Good morning,

      If you would like to read it, I have already throughly covered the part about unbelief and Mark 16:16 not saying “he that is baptized not shall be condemned” in another post – click here to read it. Believers are baptized; that’s only one reason why babies are not. But the fact remains that faith alone will not save a person – “Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.” (John 12:42,43) There is a perfect example of faith, and a perfect example of faith alone that does not save.

      James 2:17 is the only place in the entire New Testament that talks about faith alone – and it’s not good my friend! Let me again emphasize that James 2:17 is the only time in the entire New Testament where faith alone is the direct topic, and the context shows the futility of faith alone. That’s why people such as Calvin did not like the book of James. If you would like to read any more on the topic click the link. I would just say the rest of the New Testament’s teachings are too clear on the origin, purpose and necessity of Heaven’s command to be baptized (Matthew 28:18).

      Don’t ignore plain scripture for MacAuthor, Baptist Confessions, Matthew Henry and John Calvin. As far as your comments on Paul and Ephesians, he didn’t argue when he was told – “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’” (Acts 22:16). Baptism is to wash one’s sins away through the blood of Christ. Not through faith alone, not through some man-made prayer – but through baptism as the Holy Spirit baptized preacher said in Acts 2:38. Poeple didn’t earn the gift of the Holy Spirit by being baptized no more than they earned their salvation. Ephesians is referring to man-made works, not the works that belong to God like baptism. If Hebrews 5:9 says, “He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” then please explain to me how obeying God makes a person earn their salvation?

      Have a good day, CF.

  11. Romans 10:9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    Matthew 10:32
    Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    2 Timothy 3:15
    And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    • Thanks for the reply again CF,

      I have absolutely no issue at all with any of the verses you quoted. I 100% believe that confession and a belief in Jesus’ resurrection are necessary to salvation. I believe the scriptures (the Old Testament in the context) can make someone wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. After all, the scriptures are our source of faith – “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:17). You and I are 100% agreement that faith is essential to be saved and to be pleasing to God (Hebrews 11:6). But no where do the scriptures teach that faith alone saves. The very scriptures you referenced show this to be true.

      As to Romans 10, have you read verse 13 that says, “For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved“? Now, what does it mean to “call on the name of the Lord“? Many people try to teach that it means to believe, but that’s not it what means according to the very next verse that says, “How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?” (Romans 10:14) According to Paul “believing” and “calling on the name of Lord” are not the same thing. So what is a part of “calling upon the name of the Lord“? The man who wrote Romans knew very well what was apart of “calling upon the name of Lord” because he himself was told – “Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord” in Acts 22:16.

      The teaching of God’s word is too clear to misunderstand when it is “rightly divided.” Like my original post asked – Which comes first according to God’s word in Mark 16:16? Is it baptism or being saved?

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